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Subject: Ajax. Milan, and the best teams in Europe
From: loris@zeus.physast.uga.edu (Loris Magnani)
Date: Aug 18, 1995

>: In the last ten years Ajax won one more cup in Europe than Real Madrid
>: did. Hardly outright dominance by the dutchmen.
>
>OK, look at this then (From Voetbal International, 08/02/95, p.56):
>
>European Cup games between from 1991 up to 1995
>
>
>                                                 Goals
>  Team         No. of Games  Won  Tied  Lost  for/against   Difference
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 1 Ajax            37          25   9     3     67-20          +47
> 2 AC Milan        34          23   7     4     55-10          +45
...rest deleted...

After reading the above messages, I thought to myself how convenient
to include only games after the 1990/91 season when, by my reckoning,
Milan had already passed its peak.  Those of you who have read my 
diatribes know that I am of the opinion that Milan peaked in 1987-90
and that what we see today is a team which has undergone an amazingly
graceful decline.  I say amazingly graceful because most teams just
drop out of the top echelon rather quickly after a period of domination.
Milan has managed to remain among the elite of European football despite
the decline or loss of several key players from the 87-90 period (e.g.,
the aging of Baresi and Tassotti, the loss of van Basten and the decline
of Gullit, the retirement of Ancelotti, etc.).  So I decided to go back
and look at the stats for the last 10 years.  I assumed that Milan would
blow by Ajax statistically since the latest "Golden Age" of A.C. Milan
would be included...Well, the results really surprised me...
Without further ado, here are the results of my research: 


Ajax - last 10 European seasons:

Cup   Season      Games   W    T    L    GF    GA

C1    1994/5       11     7    4    0    18     4    Won
C2    1993/4        6     3    1    2    12     4    
C3    1992/3        8     7    0    1    17     6  
C3    1991/2       12     8    4    0    20     6    Won
--    1990/1              BANNED from EUROPE
C3    1989/0        2     0    0    2     0     4    Return vs. Austria V.
                                                     lost by 3-0 forfeit score
C3    1988/9        2     0    0    2     3     6
C2    1987/8        9     7    0    2    15     3    Lost final
C2    1986/7       11     7    2    2    22     5    Won
C1    1985/6        2     0    1    1     0     2
____________________________________________________________________________
                   63    39   12   12   107    40

Milan - last 10 European seasons:

C1    1994/5       11     6    2    3    11     6    Lost final
C1    1993/4       12     7    5    0    21     2    Won
C1    1992/3       11    10    0    1    23     2    Lost final
--    1991/2              BANNED from EUROPE
C1    1990/1        4     1    2    1     2     4    Return vs. O. Marseilles
                                                     lost by 3-0 forfeit score
C1    1989/0        9     6    1    2    12     3    Won
C1    1988/9        9     5    4    0    20     5    Won
C3    1987/8        4     1    1    2     3     3
--    1986/7         Did not qualify for any cup
C3    1985/6        6     2    1    3     9     9
_____________________________________________________________________________
                   66    38   16   12   101    34

Much to my surprise, Milan has not vaulted ahead of Ajax, even including
the 1987-90 period.  I guess that I did not have sufficient appreciation
for Ajax's accomplishments in the past decade.  They really have been
amazingly successful and perhaps I am today more willing to tolerate the
incessant crowing on the part of Ajax supporters.  During the last decade
they have won all 3 European Cups and gone to one other final.  My guess is
that their lack of dominance in their own league during this period has
kept them from getting the credit they deserve...In any case, I failed
to prove my point about Milan's undisputed European dominance in the last
10 years, but at least I learned something.

HOWEVER,

If we go back another 5 or 10 or 15 years from the above, Milan's stats
will quickly drop them out of the top 10.  You see, Milan is back among 
the European elite after about 15 years of utter mediocrity.  They
lost the Cup Winners Cup final in 1974 (having won in the year before) and
then pretty much did nothing in Europe until the 1988 season when they
won the European Champions Cup.  Before 1974 they had been a power in
Europe since the inception of the Cup Competitions in 1956 (and actually
even before, having won 2 Latin Cups in the early fifties).

The point is that if we want to discuss the best teams in Europe from a
historical perspective we should look at the alltime table which I have
posted previously:

     All-Time Ranking in European Cup Competition (EC1, EC2, and EC3)
                  updated through the end of the 1994/95 season



Rank #   Team          Country      Games  Won  Tied  Lost  GF   GA  pts.

  1  39  Real Madrid   Spain         265   150   44    71  569  286  344
  2  40  Barcelona     Spain         269   143   57    69  525  292  343 **
  3  34  Juventus      Italy         240   143   41    56  435  202* 327
  4  36  Benfica       Portugal      213   105   54    54  390  208* 264
  5  27  Bayern Munich Germany       196   107   46    43  406* 198* 260
  6  34  Anderlecht    Belgium       208#  106   40*   62  377  258* 252
  7  27  AC Milan      Italy         185   100   42    43  323  159  242
  8  32  Inter         Italy         194    97   43    54  307  174  237
  9  31  Ajax          Holland       172   101   28    43  329  153  230
 10  23  Liverpool     England       152    90   26    36  304  121  206
 10  33  Red Star Bel. Yugoslavia    177    88*  30    59* 341* 237* 206
 12  25  1FC Cologne   Germany       160*   84   29    47  310  186  197
 13  34  Rangers       Scotland      163    78   31    54  265  209  187
 14  29  Atletico Mad. Spain         148    80   24    44  248  159  184
 15  33  Porto         Portugal      149    73   25    51  230  163  171
 16  30  Celtic        Scotland      140    71   26    43  246  139  168
 17  20  Hamburg SV    Germany       131    73   21    37  264  155  167
 18  24  Dinamo Kiev   Ukraine       130    68   27    35  199  124  163
 19  16  Borussia Moe. Germany       115    68   25    22  261  125  161
 20  25  Feyenoord     Holland       129    65   27    37  242  142  157
 20  34  Sporting CP   Portugal      145    62   33    50  252  168  157
 22  18  Manchester U. England       111    58   30    22  220  121  146
 23  22  Standard Lie. Belgium       122    62   20    40  211  151  144
 24  21  Spartak Mosc. Russia        114    58   25    31  197  121  141
 25  21  Valencia      Spain         117    56   27    33  213  151  139

The asterisks denote discrepancies with various sources but I believe the
errors in this table are rather minor.

The conclusion is that, no matter how you slice it, the top three teams
in Europe from the inception of the European Cups are, IN NO PARTICULAR
ORDER:

Real Madrid, Barcelona, and Juventus

Year in and year out, they have dominated in Europe and internally in
their league competitions.

On the second tier, again in no particular order, I would place

Benfica, Bayern Munich, Milan, and Ajax

And on the third tier, again in no particular order, I would place

Liverpool, Inter, and Anderlecht.

Everyone else comes after...


As a Milan fan, I take pride in knowing that only 2 teams have participated
in at least one European final in each decade:  50's, 60's, 70's, 80's,
and 90's... those two teams are A.C. Milan and FC Barcelona.  If Real Madrid 
manages to get into a final before the decade is out, they will join that 
company.


================================================
Subject: Re: Champion's Cup: Milan vs. Porto
From: Loris Magnani 
Date: Sep 13, 1996

Manuel writes:
>Finally, someone with a decent opinion :-)
>It's true though, just think about it. If Milan wins, they're the best
>in the world. If Milan loses: it was a bad day, and the excuses start
>rolling in. The other team never gets any credit for it.
>
>Lets see, what excuses do we have now? New coach? So does Porto. New
>players? So does Porto. Players that missed the game? So does Porto.
>Begining of the season? So is Porto. What next???

You want to know what the real difference between Porto and Milan
is?

When you win 3-2 in San Siro, hundreds of your fans show up at the
airport to welcome the team home and one of your newspapers has
a headine titled "Historic!".

When Milan beats Porto in Oporto, as happened a few years ago on 
a goal by Papin, nobody shows up at the Milan airport and the 
headlines of the papers say: "Milan beats Porto 1-0".

When you understand that difference then you will understand why
some people make excuses when a team like Milan loses.  I don't 
make those excuses because I understood a long time ago that in 
soccer on any given day almost anything can happen.  I learned the
hard way watching that best european club side that I had seen since
Cruyff's Ajax, that is the Milan side of 1989/90, lose
seven league games.  Seven out of 34.  That club was much better than
the current Milan club, much better than the side that went undefeated
in Serie A a few years ago, much better than the side that  beat 
Barcelona 4-0.  Of those seven losses, 3 were to teams that were
relegated that year.  There is no way of rationally explaining how
a team that can manhandle European powerhouses and win the 
Intercontinental Cup by 3-0, can then lose to Cremonese, Ascoli, and
Verona.  But that's what happened, and that's what soccer is all 
about.  The best Milan team of the last decade or even the last
two decades did not even win the italian league that year.  So,
congratulations on your "historic" victory, but please spare us the
sarcasm, because no team ever goes undefeated forever.  

I find after 30+ years of following Serie A it is sometimes difficult
to decide who is the best team in Italy after everyone has played
30-34 games...Sometimes it's clear, but sometimes it's not.  To base
any judgement on the result of 1 game is absurd.  For Milan to win
5 European Champions Cups, they had to reach 8 finals.  Even when they
beat Barcelona 4-0, the only statement that could be made was that 
ON THAT DAY,they were better.  But neither I nor anyone else knows
what would have happened if those teams had played 10 games over the
period of a month.  Would Milan have won 8? WOuld Barcelona have won
8? Would they both have won 5 each?? We will never know.  My experience
is that if you have a good team and you want a win a tournament, then
you should play in at least 2 finals.  ON AVERAGE, you will win one.
But that's on average, sometimes you will win both, sometimes you
will lose both, but on average you will win about half your games if
you play opposition that is more or less on your level (to the 
statisticians out there - within one sigma of where you are).

There, I got it off my chest.